KATHLEEN MEGAN MARTIN (1934- )
Kate Martin and her husband John have lived in Bookham for nearly half a century and she was also born and brought up in Dorking. A former professional nurse and midwife, she recalled changes both in medical practices and other aspects of life in this part of Surrey.
Interview date: 31 October 2017
Location: Great Bookham
Interviewer: Tony Matthews
Family origins
My full name is Kathleen Megan Martin. I was born in Dorking at home on 4 April 1934. I was always known to the family as Kay but everybody else calls me Katie or Kate.
My father’s name was Huw Jones and he came from Bangor in North Wales. He had one brother and four sisters. My mother’s name was Gladys Muriel Inwood and she was born in Dorking and lived in Dorking all of her life.
He started off as an apprentice gardener at Penryn Castle but Lord Penryn got rid of a lot of staff so Dad migrated, shall we say, to down here and found a job as a gardener. But he later became…he knew all about plumbing and everything else. He met Mum down here. [He came here] in the 1920s some time because I didn’t know but my sister-in-law has since told me that Dad told her that it took him three weeks or more to walk from Bangor to Dorking. So I imagine he stopped en route and did odd jobs and slept where he could. He walked. They didn’t have any money.
What did your mother’s family do?
My grandfather was in the First World War and he was invalided out I believe because he was gassed. He had a pension but he was a butcher.
They always lived in Dorking?
Yes, my grandfather, we can trace back to the late 1600s. They came from Ewhurst and around that area up in the hills of Surrey.
Do you know anything about your ancestors?
Not really except they had large families. My grandfather’s mother died when he and his brother were quite young so his father took them back to live with his parents in Holmbury St Mary area so they were brought up in that area.
Did you have any siblings?
I had one brother. [David]
School years in wartime
Where did you live?
In Nower Road in Dorking. [Number] 9.
Where did you go to school?
Powell Corderoy School in Vincent Lane in Dorking which is now a Roman Catholic school but at that time when I went to school it was a non-denominational school. We could never understand why everybody else we knew had days off school until my mother told me, well they go to St Paul’s School, they go to St Martin’s School or they go to St Joseph’s School. They have saints days off. We were really miffed. We were Non-Conformists. We went to church and Sunday school but we went to a Non-Conformist school. Missed out. [But] I just remember being quite happy there really. Yes, we learned to read and write, we knew our tables and I got to hate the hymn for those in peril on the sea because we seemed to be singing it and it wasn’t until later years that I realised that it was the Battle of the Atlantic and we had to sing it every time a ship was sunk. We weren’t told that they lost so many lives and all the rest of it.
What were your favourite subjects?
History and I quite liked sewing. We had to do sewing. Mental arithmetic and as we called it ‘sums’… I just liked everything about history and I remember Mrs Dudley – oh, she was strict! – but she taught us about the Romans and the Gauls and all the rest of it.
Where did you go from the age of 11?
Then I went to the Dorking County Grammar School which is now the Ashcombe School. Of course, it was much smaller then. Mowbury [?] hadn’t been built. The other bit was a market garden…Of course, the school shelters were still there but defunct because the war had ended. Our school shelters from Powell Corderoy are now where Lidl’s is. We had to run from the school when the siren went, which it did, and go to the school shelters. We were told to keep singing and singing, louder and louder but it didn’t drown out the dogfight going on overhead.
Was it very frightening?
No, not really. It was just a part of life, wasn’t it? ……Doodlebugs were frightening because you never knew quite where they were going to land. The other that was frightening, my father made us a shelter in the garden, he dug down and we could sleep there. One night the Germans were bombing and the bomb whistled over the shelter and we really didn’t know where it was going to land. That was more frightening than anything. But we used to watch the dogfights. Then they got a bit too bad so we went in the shelter.
Was there much damage nearby?
Not really, no. …..My aunt and her family were bombed out at Redhill so they came and stayed with us for a week until their house was fit to go back to. But I do remember a friend had a couple of old aunties who lived near Milton Court where the car park is now. They were renting their house and they had an outside earth closet – not nice. The man who owned the cottage evicted them and they had to go and live in Dorking because he wanted it for some relatives from London and they came to live there to get away from the doodlebugs. But unfortunately they had only been there a couple of months and they had a direct hit from a doodlebug. They all died and the house was demolished. Dreadful but that’s war isn’t it?
What do you remember about Dorking County Grammar School?
Very strict. It was a good school. History was good. I liked Miss Macauley. The male teachers were all ex-servicemen and they knew how to keep people in order. My goodness gracious me their aim with a piece of chalk was very accurate. Every year the teachers would have a team against the hockey team from school. Our chemistry master who was quite good was on the left wing. My goodness gracious me when he ran he could run! The headmaster Mr Jones – whom everybody called Taffy – had an unfair advantage I found out later. He had had a soccer trial for one of the teams in South Wales valleys. But they were all good. We found out much later that the chemistry master, Mr Rowlap [?] had been in the SAS so he could run! But they all had a bit of history attached to them that sometimes you knew about and sometimes you didn’t.
Career in nursing
I left school at 16 and I like kids for some reason so I went and did a nursery nurse’s training for a couple of years and I went to Wimbledon Tech until it shut and then I went to Guildford Tech. The nursery that I started at was in Agate’s Lane in Ashtead. But then that shut and I had to go to Epsom. Then after my two years there, I decided yes I enjoyed it but I wasn’t going to get very far in life with just a nursery nursing training so I did nursing….I went and trained at the Middlesex for three years and you usually stayed on for an extra year. So I had four very happy years at the Middlesex.
Then you see in those days if you wanted to get on and get a sister’s post you couldn’t unless you had done Part One Midwifery. So I went with my friends to Cambridge Mill Road as it was then, which was an old workhouse. I did Part One Midwifery there. My friend Shirley lives in Cornwall and she was going to Part Two in Plymouth. I liked it so I went to Plymouth for six months. That was jolly hard work. I worked on the naval estate. Plymouth was very badly bombed during the war and the bomb damage was still there. But the naval estate had been purposely built for the mums so we knew exactly what was in the houses. Nobody in those days there had a baby in hospital. They all had to have them at home. So you can imagine, we finished one shift and started another. My biggest sigh of relief, we were having our last lecture and I saw the HMS ARK ROYAL, the biggest carrier ship in the Navy, sailing down the Tamar and my first thoughts were, thank God, I won’t be here in nine months. But of course, it wasn’t its home port anyway. But no, I learned a lot and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I kept going back with my friends to Cambridge and two or three of us worked at Mill Road, the maternity unit, and the others worked at the Addenbrooke’s Hospital.
Midwifery anecdotes
Do you remember any particular cases?
Yes, it wasn’t our area but we were covering it for the midwife who had the daytime off. It was just by the Tamar Bridge. I was told how to get there so I managed to get there about five o’clock in the morning. The door was opened to me by a four-year-old little girl. She just looked at me and she said ‘I saw my baby born.’ The baby was there before we were. But that was it. But lots of other cases. I remember we delivered a baby – I can’t remember what sex it was, I think it was a boy – it had a caul over its face. I was telling Grandma that the baby had this thing and she said: ‘Oh, could I have it?’ I said why and she said: ‘Well I will dry it because the baby who has a caul over its head is supposed not to drown.’ So I just gave it to her, why not? Tradition. I thought, Plymouth, sailors, fair enough. There was one little boy. I was walking down the road carrying my bag and he came and stopped me – he was about four – and he said: ‘When you come to my house, you bring the boy bag. Don’t you dare bring the girl bag!’ I thought God, his mother has told him that. So I said: ‘When I come to your house I just grab a bag so I don’t know whether there’s a boy or a girl in it.’
Time in Canada
After Cambridge, we went to Canada for three years and I came back – what year was Kennedy assassinated? – …….well I was back by 1963 and I was working in Dorking part-time. As a midwife, yes. I met my husband in Canada and we got married……He ended up as a teacher in a college of further education…I didn’t like living in Canada that much…We were living in Toronto and I hadn’t found the ravines by then, I don’t think they had been developed. [A network of deep ravines that forms a large urban forest running throughout much of that city.] But there was nowhere to go for a walk there unless you walked in the park. Living in this area I wasn’t used to walking in parks. There were no footpaths and I didn’t like the attitude. It was all not who you are but how much money you had and that wasn’t me. I can remember being very rude to somebody and I told him what I thought. Afterwards, I was told he was a member of the Ontario Parliament.
Remaining career
I was working until I had our daughter in 1964 and then I had a ten-year gap when I had the children. Then I went back to Epsom Hospital part-time as a midwife. I was there working part-time until my youngest was 15 and then I went full-time on the district at Ashtead.
How long was your midwifery career in all?
About 20 odd years with the ten-year gap.
When did you retire?
I went before I should have done because they wanted to change the working practice where I was and having worked that in my twenties I thought there was no way I was going to do it in my fifties. So I left…..about 1982 or thereabouts. [I was] covering the district home to home but I didn’t do many deliveries and when my colleagues were off in Cobham and Leatherhead we covered them as well. So we covered quite a wide area. There were three or four of us and what they wanted us to do was to deliver all of the mums that we had on our books between us. There’s no way you could do that because you get too tired. I did deliver some but I was coming back from Epsom at four o’clock in the morning knowing that I had to go back to work at nine o’clock in the morning and work a full day. You can’t do it when you are older.
Over your career how did the balance change between hospital and home births?
I think they were pushing for hospital births because they felt it was safer. It possibly was because of some of the things that we did in Plymouth…I remember I didn’t take my Part Two exam in Plymouth because you had to write several casebook notes and I remember I took my exam at Chelsea Hospital and the obstetrician that read through it said to me: ‘My God, they are a backward lot down there.’ I said there are no beds in hospital unless you have a section, you do everything else at home. You do forceps and things that you would not dream of doing now and that’s it. [That was] 1958 or 1959. The hospital was being rebuilt but it takes time doesn’t it.
Caesar sections are far more common now, aren’t they?
I think in some cases yes they need it but what we did was hazardous, shall we say, but we got away with it nine times out of ten. But to have a section it’s much less risk for the child’s wellbeing. A lot of mums want sections but I think they are mad. That’s life.
My own children
What about your own children?
I have three. I have a daughter who lives in Australia. I have two sons. One who lives in Farnham and the other is living up in Derbyshire…..My daughter hasn’t any family and the boys have a boy and a girl each. My eldest grandchild, Fionne, will be 20 in March. They go from 19, 18, 17 and 16.
Do any of them follow in your medical footsteps?
The grandchildren no but my daughter is a pharmacist….and she specialises in oncology and paediatrics. So she’s got three strings to her bow.
What about your sons?
The younger one works for an electricity company. He goes around fixing things. He lives in Derbyshire because it’s in the middle of the country. He has to go up to Scotland, down to Southampton, and at the moment I think he’s at Great Yarmouth. My other son….designs safety equipment…The boys started life they had an apprenticeship with CERL which was based in Leatherhead. They didn’t do an electrical they did mechanical – the other one…..They worked for the board for a number of years before they specialised. My younger son was encouraged to take an Open University degree which he did…when he was 45 he got a 2:1 in Engineering which I think was pretty brilliant…….The boys didn’t do well at school but my daughter had this fixation, she knew what she wanted so she knew she had to work. She went to Chelsea…She did her pharmacy degree there and went straight in.
Changes in Bookham
When did you come to live in Bookham?
About 47 years ago.
How has Dowlans Road changed since then?
We lived opposite three bungalows and if you go outside the front door you will see three houses now. One of them has a swimming pool in the back garden.
Moved upmarket?
It has indeed. They knocked down the houses, that shack in the dip. They built two houses down there and they were sold for £995,000 so almost a million. Opposite them when we first came here there used to be a railway carriage which a man was living in but he died soon after we got here and they built the chalet bungalow that is opposite now.
Has the community changed?
A lot because we all knew each other. We all looked after each other. Next door to us was a lady, Mrs Jones, she was in her late seventies I think and we kept an eye on her and took her shopping. Now nobody cares. There are a few people who say if you need help we are there. But I think I’ve got about four or five people I did rely on….but the community spirit has gone. You don’t know who has moved in.
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I do know a lot of people and there are people I can call on if I am desperate but I have to be pretty desperate. In this road ,I have got about three people I know who will help me if I’m stuck.
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Changes in Bookham’s shops?
We have lost the haberdashers which used to be here. That went and hasn’t been replaced because people don’t sew as much as they did…….There are lot more charity shops than there used to be……No banks. They want to go digital don’t they and until my generation dies out they have had it….
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Coincidental meeting
A strange thing happened when I was in a supermarket in Canada. I met a gentleman behind me and he had about three things and I had a trolley-full. I said would he like to go in front of me because I would be a long time and he said no he was quite happy. He said to me you’re English aren’t you and I said yes. He said where do you come from and I said well you wouldn’t have heard of it. I live 24 miles southwest of London. He said Oh where? I said, Dorking. He laughed and said I know it well. I was stationed in the army in Leatherhead during the war and I helped build Young Street. I laughed and said the bailey bridge fell down about three years ago and they had to build a new one. He said it wasn’t there to last more than three years so it has done extremely well.
Transport changes
When we were children we went everywhere by bus because no-one had a car. If you did have a car you had to put it in your garage or somewhere because petrol was rationed. Petrol was only used for ambulances, fire engines, the police and doctors. everybody else walked or cycled. Mind you if you had a bike you had to be careful because the Army could requisition the bike. So you didn’t use it that much. But buses were very frequent. I had an aunt who lived at Redhill. From Dorking to Redhill there were two buses every hour and they went on to Croydon. From Dorking, again to Croydon, using Leatherhead and a different route, they went every half an hour. To Guildford, they went every half hour so we were well equipped with buses. You could get to Horsham every half hour on the bus. We lived quite way away from the railway station but we did get to places by train but they were usually packed with troops and everything else so it wasn’t very pleasant. You did it if you had to……That was before I was 12.
………………………………We lived near the bus station at Fetcham at one time. Yes, there used to be quite a frequent service from there. I used to get the bus to Dorking from the church. Walk up to the church and catch the bus to Dorking. That was roughly every half an hour too. That was in the 1960s. But since then, of course, most people have got cars so they don’t need them any more.
Link title: Lord Tucker
Lord Tucker, one of the Lords appeal judges, lived in the village in Fairfield House. They had an enormous garden. In the garden, they had a bungalow for their secretary. They also had a squash court which certain people were allowed to use. All I remember about the squash court was that it was adequate but goodness gracious me it was cold. I went to Lord tucker as part of a team to look after his wife, to get her up in the morning and to get her back to bed at night. He was always a very kind, courteous man who was interested in what you were doing – apart from looking after Lady Tucker – in your family. I always thought he was a very kindly man and a good judge. Then Lady Tucker died and then when he became ill we looked after him as well until he died.
Frederick James Tucker, Baron Tucker (1888-1975) presided over the trial of William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) for treason in 1945. Invested as a Privy Councillor that year, he was Lord Justice of Appeal 1945- 1950. Appointed Lord of Appeal in Ordinary in 1950, he was created a life peer with the title Baron Tucker of Great Bookham in the County of Surrey. He retired in 1961.
Lost wildlife
I remember when we first came here because we’ve got a large laurel hedge front and back, we always had jenny wrens and the little birds nesting in there but I haven’t had any for the last few years. We always had pied wagtails walking around the garden but we don’t have them anymore. Thrushes have disappeared. When I used to take the dog for a walk up Dorking Road on my right-hand side there was Mr Gray’s farm and his fields. You could always see the skylarks soaring and singing above your head. Suddenly they would plunge to earth but I haven’t seen that for years. I have never noticed owls around here [but] the other thing that has disappeared are the cuckoos in the spring. You don’t hear a cuckoo anymore. You sometimes used to hear the owls hooting at night but again I haven’t heard that for a long, long time.
I have seen the deer on Ranmore Common…I think we did have deer in the garden at one time but we don’t anymore. We have foxes and that’s it really. We had a hedgehog who hibernated, my grandson found him. He hibernated in some leaves that had blown underneath the barbecue. It is a brick built barbecue so he had a nice warm home. But then when the weather got warmer he disappeared and I haven’t seen him since.
Scouting on Ranmore
I was a very keen guide when I was younger and we used to camp at the top of Ranmore in a field by the Old Rectory. It sounds awful but it was quite fun really. Our guide captain always took us up there at Whit weekend. At Whit weekend all of the scouts in Surrey used to camp either side of the Ranmore Road. They all had their roped off areas for their scout troops and they all made different entrances to their campsites. So you used to walk along the road looking at the entrances which were all lashings of poles together and things like that. It was quite interesting. One evening 0we were there and went to the campfire. A rowdy lot of boys. The compere was on the raised area and he said now the Chief Scout is coming at any moment. When I raise my hand I want hush, utter hush. Then I will ask for three rousing cheers. They were singing along and all of a sudden the hand went up. You could have heard a pin drop. There was utter hush. Through the dappled shade the Chief Scout, who was Lord McLaren, walked to the raised area. He was wearing a kilt. Now there’s something about a man in a kilt, he was gorgeous. Of course, there were three rousing cheers but it’s just one of those memories of this man walking in the dappled sunlight. They were good days but they don’t do them anymore because the National Trust acquired the land in the 1950s. Although one of the Cubitts was high up in the scouts for Surrey so he encouraged it for a few years and then it all died out.
What was ‘hurting’?
My mother used to take my brother David and I blackberrying and all the rest of it when we were young. We used to go wooding and getting the pine cones for the fire. But then one day she suggested that we go ‘hurting’. David and I didn’t call it ‘hurting’. W called it ‘we were going ‘urting’. We went once and we never went again because we wouldn’t do it. You are on your hands and knees and the plants are very low on the ground. You have to pick these tiny little berries. I thionk most peole call them bilberries. It really is a back-breaking job. But that is the local name. Hurts. But if you mention it to anybody else they don’t know what you are talking about. Billberries. But there is a wood at Holmbury St Mary area which is called Hurt Wood. I know they have got the ‘hurt’ plants there. They had a youth hostel there but I think it has closed now.